HOBB Community

I had never heard or read Jordan Fogel’s home story in the detail, as was on Hobb’s cover page. It was a real shock to hear the builder blamed her, the buyer (hopefully ‘no missed’ sarcasm here). The ‘Rate My builder’ showed its true new face too, within the new owners’ commentary quoted in the story. It is pro-builder out right.

There are crucial differences in what dissatisfaction percentages mean on a statistical comparison basis. Say for another example, 20% of people who fly on major airlines are dissatisfied with the service they receive. Maybe that’s also not so bad compared to other industry standards.

But what if the dissatisfaction issue came from a problem in that 20% of the causes of dissatisfaction were with the planes crashing due to poor construction, seriously wounding or killing passengers. Surveys are not a one size fits all business.

Builder’s quality rating standards simply do not work on Rate my builder, or JD Power, or any other statistical rating system that classifies them against other consumable products. Houses have uniquely higher customer expectations, and well they should.

Historically homes were built for families to live out their entire lives in. Often generations of families would live in a home, built to last. People still don’t see homes as consumables; it’s really the big tract builders, some realtors and flippers, that have rewritten what a new home is to consumers. And they are dead wrong to apply that as an industry standard. Disposable housing is NOT the American dream.

Ron, I don't know about your builder but my builder did the same thing. Blamed me for their defects. Blatantly, from repsonses to my state rep. TRCC the BBB that is what  they did . In meeting with TRCC and getting back a letter stating we find your builder did nothing wrong, ( and that is with numerous documentation I submitted). I am the one that has to prove otherwise.  I met with the head of TRCC and pointed out all the "falsehoods" in my builder's response. They are dispicable .They ruin your lives then you have to prove otherwise. But it is not surprising. The entire climate at state affairs showed how unconscionable this issue is but yet almost all the Republicans voted against
any bill that provided protection. On the other hand it was a Democrat (Ritter) who filed the bill on behalf of the builders (and himself).
When Jordan finally had the opportunity to go to court and was thrown back into arbitration by a certain judge I did some research and found that judge was appointed by our governor, not voted in. Interesting.

The industry could shoot itself in the foot for taking that approach because then a house starts to look more and more like a "product," which might mean the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act applies.  The building industry as usual talks out both sides of its mouth.

Ron.  I had to force pulte to conduct an 11 month walk-through IAW the warranty. During this walk-through the customer svc rep looked me right in the eyes and said, "don't you think all of these problems are because of you?"  I wanted to reach over and smack his face.  I was so livid, it took everything out of me, just to stare him down and state unequivocably "NO!"

Builders believe themselves to be made of teflon. The DC lobbyists, congressmen and senators are to blame for this.  The builder of my house truly believes they are above the law and will do whatever it takes to circumvent it.  Eventually though, they will get caught and hopefully will pay the price.

truly disgusting.  honor, integrity?  I doubt some of these big builders, and little builders even know what they mean.  It is truly a disgrace - and those that are good builders (and who are they?) are paying the price. I wouldn't trust a builder if he built me a house for free.

 

Let's be honest with ourselves here. They ARE above the law right now. This is an industry that can commit criminal negligence, and also act as the lead investigator, judge, and jury, to determine their liability for that negligence.

Hypothetically, leave it to every person in prison to decide if they are guilty or innocent of committing a crime based on their assessment of the evidence against them. And even if they admit guilt, let them decide what their sentence should be. How much justice would there really be?

Builders are more or less people, certainly not saints. They can't just govern themselves to the extent they've been allowed without destroying large numbers of innocent consumers.       

Pretty much the same, and I've heard about many others getting the same BS type script. Only minor difference for me, the Ryan Homes rep reviewing our problems said by phone,

"Upon our inspection, even if we determine we were responsible for the damages in your home, we will not take any responsibility whatsoever for those damages."

I didn't let them in, so that theoretically made me responsible, in that I wouldn't allow them to "help." Instead I told him that I would just take what happened to our home to press and anyone who would listen.

His reply, "We are a large well organized company. We know how to deal with matters like this."

Looking back, that seems pretty accurate so far.

And he went on, "You don't want to mess around with NVR. (their corp head) I'm just telling you this for your own good...you need to get that stuff off there (the gripe site) NVR...those people can destroy you. Understand now, I'm just trying to help you...you really need to get that stuff taken down...I mean for your own good."   

That was the end of interactive customer service contact. I did get attorney support and help from other victims to make sure my website was pretty bullet proof, should they file suit, as was also threatened.

For a while after, I put tamper evident things in places on my car where idiots might plant a bomb or something. I assumed their own half wit employees would most likely try something in that range if so. That didn't happen but other criminal type stuff did, too long to go into here.

My paranoia sort of paid off, as I did catch a bolt on my brake master cylinder line that had loosened itself. All the fluid was almost pumped out of the master cylinder by the time I saw it.

I also generally kept some sort of defensive weapon in reach, not certain what was meant about "for my own good." I was not backing down from anything, whatever happened. Their rep came off making NVR sound like mafia or something, and so that's how I took it. I learned a lot about NVR, and I do think they are deeply involved with organized crime people, but most of us refer to those people as the U.S. government. 

I'm not just pumping up drama, this honestly happened while we lived in an apartment, when our home was uninhabitable from defects. I was slowly repairing the house. It was stress upon stress for real, even if part of it can be written off as just paranoia.

The home was always a repairable situation in our case, we just eventually ran out of resources, and lost our health and so on, all at the same time, due to the house defects. As for Ryan Homes, they easily could have resolved the problems, but I think arrogance was too big a deterrent. They didn't want to back down either from their super power position.

But I've told my story many times, and I know I'm just another one now. Odd, we started out feeling like we were completely alone with this sort of problem. Now it seems like there are so many, each of our individual stories can seem to be drowned out by the chorus of victims.   

btw, I'm in book writing mode, so rather than put all my 3k to 5k words a day on here, better get back to the stuff I hope to get paid for! 590 words on this doesn't count!

Ron, oftentimes the homeowner's paranoia is well founded.  One homeowner in GA got into a shooting match with his builder, Brian Epp.  Epp's unhappy customer lived and the builder didnt', but the homeowner is in jail now.  Early investigation said it was self defense but nevertheless, later, the homeowner went to jail.  I seriously doubt that builder was behaving in a professional and ethical manner before shooting broke out.

I think some builders try to scare the complainers and it frequently works.  I've had homeowners describe to me and show me how they were threatened in various ways, and the mentality of the person making the threats is usually quite low.  Dead animals left on the doorstep, that sort of thing.  If the industry WANTS consumers to believe they are mafioso wannabes, then they are on the right track.

My own builder sent easily traced email to make me think they could and would follow my every move, get into my house uninvited, harm me, etc.  Believe me, law enforcement takes no notice but it's important to report anything like that which you can prove, such as tracable email, physical evidence, recordings, etc.  It's important that it becomes part of the record even if the homeowner gets no help in alleviating it. 

Another tactic is builders basically threatening, bribing, or paying neighbors to turn against the complainer.  Telling them they won't be able to sell their houses is one tactic. Can vary from asking them to spy on the neighbor, lie about things, silence their own complaints, or whatever.  People have to be careful who they confide in, and this also serves to divide and conquer, and get everyone suspicious of the neighbors.  Too many homeowners are too quick to sell out or back down to a builder's pressure, too.

Leads me to believe that many of our psychologically disfunctional citizens go into homebuilding.  The industry seems to be populated with way too many folks who get no joy from anything "normal" people do, but instead only seek money, power, and inflicting suffering however they can, (and especially, getting away with it). 

I think neither of you are paranoid. I live in the real world and things happen. I park both of my cars in the garage and shut it as soon as I get home. I check my drive way as Cindy has had big nails thrown up near the garage door. I truly believe if the builder wouldn't be singled out, especially since I have gotten so much publicity, I would have been taken care of a while ago. 

I believe the scenario about the neighbors too. One tried to run Cindy and I down while we were protesting. My neighbors won't talk to me and even go to the extent of going into the house if I am passing by.  I don't take it personally because I know the builder is filling their heads full of BS and they are afraid.  I believe they also might be more afraid that the same thing could happen to them.  They see how the builder treats me and know that if they bring their issues to their attention, they will get the same treatment. 

My neighbors throw their trash on my lawn, and use my property as a dog park.  lovely.  what small minded ignorant people. I actually feel sorry for them.

I moved from acreage and had been living on acreage for over 20 years. So I am used to being by myself and if none of my neighbors are not friendly, I really don't care. I have friends elsewhere.

However, should I have to live like this? of course not.  The only mistake I made was buying a house from Pulte, the only mistake.

Most of the bad developers, builders and contractors I've known haven't threatened customers, but customers have threatened them since the customer is the one that got burned. I've seen far more threats between subcontractors and general contractors after the subs and subs of subs weren't paid or shorted.

You can imagine the corner cutting, sabotage, theft and poor work attitudes when subs know they're not being paid in full.

One of the common things I've heard, read of, and seen first hand, is subs sabotaging the house in some way, usually by crapping in vents or putting dead animals or rotting food in the walls/vents and sealing it up.  Also blocking vents with empty milk jugs, or blocking toilets with debris.  Of course, if the customer complains, the builder say's it's not their fault, it's the subs, or they claim it was "accidental."  I'd like to know how someone accidentally craps in a heating/AC duct in an attic.  In one instance, builders said crap was "left by dogs," even though it was accompanied by used toilet paper.  (Yes.  Flying, toilet-paper-using dogs.  Common on all construction sites.  Everyone knows that.  ;) )

Using threats and intimidation isn’t something a big builder would overtly do. That would be a fatal policy. Looking back, I think in my case the builder rep was more afraid of what NVR would do to him, not me, for allowing such a major fiasco come to light under his operational division.

Most of the time cowardly types use threats and intimidation to manipulate people. When builders take that approach, it’s usually because they know they’re in the wrong. People who are more dangerous just take action, they don’t threaten it. People who decide to take action against another person or entity, but, who patiently contemplate for days, months, or even years, on how to execute that retribution are the often most dangerous. You may never see them coming.

This is not to imply that I’m personally on some vendetta as someone with Ryan Homes accused me of, nor did I destroy my own home and health for profit, like one of Ryan Homes subs accused me of.

Not that it’s anyone’s business, but I was financially pretty much secure for life before meeting Ryan Homes, and I was doing what I wanted for the most part. Suffice to say my life was mine before. I sought fair recovery from losses from clear negligence.

That was in part because I actually needed it, but was also about the fact that I was truly wronged and severely harmed by another’s carelessness. How the company handled that only insured I would never just let it go.

That’s what happened to most of the victims here. Not only have they been harmed, but then had it shoved back in their face. And we see it happening to so many others time and again, and can’t just accept it.

As to the problem with subs, a real homebuilder would be a craftsman, not a giant corporate entity that subs out everything to a bunch of disenfranchised workers with no real future. That’s including illegals they hire, who sometimes not only hate their work, but hate the Americans they are working for.

The housing boom was nothing about any shortage of housing. It was all about money to certain big tract builders. Certainly a lot of customers wanted a new home with low fixed rates. But the homebuilding business was more driven and overstressed by the demands from big builder board members and CEOs, and every one else down the line that got bonuses based on sales volume.

It was much more about boosting the multimillion dollar bonuses from stock options, than about creating the American dream of home ownership for buyers. These were people who had want for nothing really needed to have a good life, and still they wanted more. They created the conditions for massive shoddy construction. That line of thinking may be cliché, but as they say, clichés are often made by reoccurring truths.

The definition of Builder has certainly changed. Builders used to be outfits with highly skilled crews, equipment, tools and handled (or could handle) nearly all phases of construction. Now general contractors that hire subs that hire other subs that use unskilled, unsupervised laborers call themselves builders. Some of the laborers (not illegals) have limited skills, are paid very poorly, work in poor conditions and have poor attitudes so the quality of their work suffers (especially if they're drunk or stoned). Some could make more money working in a warehouse or delivering pizzas. No, I'm not kidding. Unlike many good employers, subs will hire unqualified high school dropouts, pay cash and don't require criminal background checks and drug testing.



When things are busy it's nearly impossible to build multiple homes with good subs since most of the good subs are often overbooked. The good subs are generally quite expensive and tend to work for high end builders or in the commercial sector where they have larger budgets. Many of the good tradesmen we know only work for themselves, or for a select few builders and contractors. We were the same way when we used to do general contracting work since most builders were looking for the cheapest and fastest subs.  Some contractors were so bad about paying and shorting subs that the only way we could work for them was with a 100 percent down payment and extras paid as you go. When you're using subs or subs of subs you've never dealt with before it's always a crap shoot. You really have to keep an eye on them to make sure they're not stealing materials, stealing tools and equipment from other contractors, cutting corners or screwing something up that will throw a wrench into the gears of your schedule.


There are probably regional differences as well. We don't really have many immigrant workers, day laborers or very large scale building developments. The best selling homes in the area are custom homes on acreage and lakefront homes. The outfits building these type of homes are generally quite good as far as quality is concerned.